Vatican to SSPX: We’re Done Now

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Vatican to SSPX: We’re Done Now


In the end, this was basically bound to happen and was guessed years ago, but since it’s happened, it’s made the news. The Vatican has told the SSPX, the Latin-Mass group that tries to operate as an anti-ecumenical and traditionalist body, that because of their refusal to accept Vatican II, the dialogue between the two has effectively ended.

The end of the dialogue probably most benefits the SSPX, because the recent entrance into discussions with the Vatican has led to questions about its credibility and viability as a traditionalist group. On the other hand, liberals in the Roman Catholic Church have decried dialogue with the SSPX as a return to the dark ages, particularly when Richard Williamson, one of their Bishops, questioned the severity of the Nazi program against the Jews in World War II, after which he and the other SSPX leaders began to distance themselves from each other.

The SSPX was formed in 1970 to protest the promulgation of the New Mass and decisions of the Second Vatican Council by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who was excommunicated by the Vatican for disobedience in 1988. The excommunications against Lefebvre’s successors¬†were lifted last year by Rome, with the exception of Williamson for his positions on World War II and the Jews.

Via Reuters:

Archbishop Gerhard Mueller, who took up his post as head of the powerful Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) in July, said in an interview to be broadcast on Saturday that the Church could not negotiate away the fundamentals of its faith.

His comments to North German Radio (NDR) were the first from the Vatican on deadlocked talks meant to reintegrate the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) into the Church after a 21-year schism over its implacable opposition to 1960s reforms.

In recent weeks, SSPX leaders have indicated a two-year series of talks with the Vatican had hit an impasse because Rome’s insistence that they accept reforms of the 1962-1965 Second Vatican Council was a deal breaker for them.

“We cannot give away the Catholic faith in negotiations,” Mueller said according to a pre-broadcast report by NDR.

“There will be no compromises here,” he said. “I think there now will be no new discussions.”

  • All you are doing is regurgitating a Reuters story concerning an unofficial interview of a deeply confused individual, at least theologically. Actually the ball is in the SSPX court as we await their official response,which will obviously be negative, because the Vatican is the one who has leveled unreasonable demands.

    • Hieromonk Enoch

      Are you saying Gerhard Mueller is the deeply confused individual? Because he seems to be the head of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith; therefore, he seems to speak with some authority for the Vatican. And he seems to equate the Vatican II council with the ‘Catholic faith.’

      From an Orthodox perspective he would be heterodox; but, it seems if you want to know the Vatican’s doings and opinions, it wouldn’t hurt to hear what the head of the CDF is saying.

  • albertcooper

    Fact ! The Church has been in demise ever since the Second Vatican Council,and is a failed experiment ! I believe the Holy Father realises this but he has many enemies within.

    • NFTU

      Fact: the Roman Catholic church has been in demise since 1054.

      • Tom Merkel

        Lets see the Eastern Orthodox Church try to call an Ecumenical council. Trying to get all of the different National/Ethnic Churches to agree on anything would be impressive

        • Hieromonk Enoch

          Most of those old national churches, the patriarchates, have themselves become heretical (the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the Antiochian Patriarchate, Alexandriate Patriarchate, State Church of Greece, Romanian Patriarchate, etc) after they accepted the heresies of ecumenism, sergianism, and modernism.

          True Orthodox that re-established local Churches cooperate quite well. Besides, the next some the so-called ecumenist ‘Patriarchates’ call an ‘ecumenical council’ it will according to many saints, be the council of antichrist.

          • NFTU

            Father, I’m under the impression that Tom is repeating a typical Roman Catholic canard– that Orthodox haven’t called Ecumenical councils since the Romans left. In general, they aren’t aware that Orthodox accept nine ecumenical councils, the last of which was called without Rome’s presence. They also don’t really know about the Pan-Orthodox councils after 1453 (they ceased being called “ecumenical” with the end of the Empire). Since they generally don’t understand that “ecumenical” meant “imperial” in context, they tend to think that those later Papal councils were proof of the ecumenicity of the Church because they called their councils “ecumenical”.

          • Hieromonk Enoch

            Ok. I understand; just like we are bound to accept the Pan-Orthodox Councils held under Patriarch Jeremias the Illustrious in the 1580s, or the dogmatic decrees of the Council of Bethlehem held under the holy Patriarch Dositheus, in 1672. No one is free to reject those, as they have been accepted by the whole Church previously.

        • NFTU

          Ecumenical Councils weren’t called by the Pope, but by the Emperor. The second Ecumenical council was not only not convened by or approved by the Pope, it was presided over by St Meletius, who was out of communion with Rome at the time.

          And of course there was the problem of which of the councils was the eighth Ecumenical Council. 869 or 879? Everyone agreed it was 879 until after the schism, when Rome magically decided to change to the 869 council which was evidently anathematized by Rome (see the Jesuit writer Dvornik for that fact).

          I would suggest looking up “conciliarism”. (It’s here if you need help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conciliarism) The fact that Roman Catholics invented a system by which they could call false councils 500 years after the schism is not a proposition that tends towards a proof of Papal supremacy’s “divine origin”.

    • Tom Merkel

      Fact, the Church has had trouble since vatican II but has not been in demise

      • NFTU

        Fact: the Roman Catholic church is in schism from Orthodoxy for 1000 years.

      • albertcooper

        Seeking excuses in sin.The Sacrament of Penance mostly overlooked,and Mortal sin not understood.The lack of respect towards the Blessed Sacrament of the alter.The lack of vocations to the religious life,the closing down of monasteries and Convents.and on and on all since V2

        • NFTU

          Vatican II was the natural and eventual result of replacing grace with physical organization. St John of Kronsdadt rightly predicted that the structure of the RCC would collapse on itself.

          And it has.

  • Tom Merkel

    The church hasn’t said they would stop talking to SSPX, they are waiting for the general superiors final response. When they have that whether it is positive or negative then they will decide what road they are going to take.

    • NFTU

      Rome gave them an ultimatum: accept Vatican II. Anyone following the SSPX for years would know that they’ve been trying to legalistically avoid accepting it. This is the end of the dialogue, because the SSPX now has no other options. Accept or not accept.